I had the distinct misfortune the other day of giving more than a cursory glance to The Sun. Among the trivia and celebrity gossip being passed off as news was this story about the wanted Nazi war criminal avoiding justice in Austria.
What bothers me about the story is not that for some misguided bleeding heart liberal reason I believe Nazi war criminals should be forgiven, but the insistence that with the man being 95 years old and clearly already frail time is running out for "justice".
I really don't get what they expect to happen. Asner is unrepentant in as much as he denies any wrongdoing, and I'm presuming from all the talk of wanting to haul him before a court, that he hasn't been found guilty by a court. To me the whole thing seems to be saying "Let's execute him before he dies of old age and gets away with it!"
Presuming that someone who is a suspected Nazi and wanted for war crimes would ever be able to have a fair trial, what exactly would constitute "justice"? Should he be made to do community service maybe? Perhaps we should give him an ASBO and stop him from going to football matches? If we refuse to sentence him to death because state-sanctioned murder would be a little bit too close to what he is accused of, what's the alternative -- perhaps he should live out the rest of his (probably quite limited) days in a maximum security prison?
I have no easy answers or quick solutions, it just seems to me that it's all very well writing words in bold and capital letters and shouting about justice, but what exactly is justice in this case, and how would he ever face a fair trial?
I should remember not to let you read The Sun in coffee shops.
ReplyDeleteI don't think hauling the guy over the coals is going to make any difference. It's not going to "teach him a lesson", he's not repentant... what exactly would be achieved?
Plus you're right, the publicity of the guy almost certainly puts a stop to a fair trial- one that would be quite lengthy, I'd imagine.
I suspect it will never make it to court, there'll be some medical reason why he's unfit to stand trial.
i have always long wonder about these as well.
ReplyDeleteHere in Indonesia, every once in a while you ran into people who was there during those days when justice wasn't yet discovered.
Then i realised, some of them have been waiting for just as many years to see justice done.
maybe it's for them... old people hurt, too.
I think, Jay, that you and Amanda are missing a pertinent point. Trials and sentences are not only about teaching the guilty 'a lesson' - it's as much about using the convicted as an example to deter others from committing similar crimes and it's equally about justice for victims.
ReplyDeleteAsner may not learn anything because he's unrepentent but that's not really the point, is it (I mean, a lot of criminals currently in jail probably haven't learned a thing or feel guilty). What kind of message is society sending when a man accused of genocide and extraordinary atrocities does not face trial because so many years have gone past? The message is - do it and if you can escape the law for long enough, then everything is ok.
What kind of message does it send to the victims of this man's actions if no attempt is made to take him to trial? The message is that their loss, their pain and what they experienced is just not awful enough to bother with.
So I think, from that point of view, it is important to pursue this, despite his age.
I think the only reason the search for these "Nazi War Criminals" goes on is because self-centered and narrow minded Jews Lobby for "action." Personally, I don't care if whole familes were gassed or burned in ovens. It's over. It's done. And until people today ALLOW themselves to heal, they will carry that hatred for generations and use it, knowingly or unknowingly, to destroy everything around them.
ReplyDeleteInterestingly enough, the Jews are the only group still publicly persuing "justice" in this matter. The familes and friends and communities of the MILLIONS OF NON-JEWS KILLED BY THE NAZIS have found ways to go on with their lives. But every Jewish friend I have carries such bitter hatred that I'm disgusted... just from their behavior! Even the ones with families untouched by the Nazis are bitter, angry people when it's brought up in conversation.
Now I don't hate Jews or anything, and this isn't a rant against them. My first boyfriend was amazingly, may-as-well-be-a-rabbi jewish. And my good friend, David, knows his grandparents burned in the ovens. But they need to LET GO. The human experience as a whole cannot collectively heal when hate becomes something people justify over a lifetime after events took place.
Of course, I also fantasize about a world where Israel is dissovled because I don't think the Brits and their buddies had the right to steal the homes of the Palestinians and hand them over to displaced Jews. But I recognize that took place over 50 years ago, and I don't actively persue such a thing. It would be unfair for the generations of Israelis born there to be forced to leave... and thus the cycle continues.
But that's another story. Let the Nazis live out their lives in peace. They've already suffered enough. They've had to hide huge parts of their history just to be given the chance to live. I think it's time to let them live and die with grace.
Amanda: You should stop me reading a lot of things, most of the time. At least once a day I'll read something in the news I am compelled to write about, the lucky thing for most people is I usually don't get around to it. I'm not saying he shouldn't go to court, though, just that I don't think he could be tried fairly and the feverish cries for justice unsettle me.
ReplyDeleteTreespotter: That was thought-provoking, like much of what you write often is. The trouble is, everyone wants justice to be done, but for some people the idea of justice is more like a mob with burning torches...
Dune: You make a fair point, victims do deserve justice. However, to my knowledge this man hasn't been found guilty of anything and we haven't yet established what exactly would be a fitting sort of justice or how he would have a fair trial -- presuming that you agree justice is not necessarily a synonym for punishment.
Raine: I think I would have to write a whole new post just to begin to give credit to all you have written. I disagree with the idea that some people should just get over it, although I think I can understand what you are saying and some people like to use the idea of being a victim as an excuse or almost a medal. But perhaps it's different countries and different cultures, because I don't think I've met anyone with the bitterness and hatred you describe.
I don't think anyone has any standing to say whether this man deserves to be brought to trial or not unless they have a relation who perished in the concentration camp.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, by not bringing consequences to someone's actions - especially regarding murder - is tantamount to saying that, if you wait long enough and everyone who dies out who cared or had a stake in the matter, then you did nothing wrong.
Would this guy be charged by the ICJ or just a regular jury of citizens? If I understand the ICJ, it's not comprised or ordinary citizens, but specialists in international law, whose job it is to deal with highly public issues impartially.
Jay: You don't need to be KNOWN to be guilty to be brought to trial - the whole point of the trial is to determine that. He is believed to be guilty and there must be some kind of evidentiary support for this in order for a trial to proceed, in which case the law must be allowed to run it's course.
ReplyDeleteRaine: We could have a very interesting discussion about this - I must email you. But, for the moment, re your point about how Jews don't seem prepared to let it go. I agree with you to a point - you can't move on until you move on and that means forgiving and, eventually, forgetting. I think, though, what makes Jewish people cling to it today more than other non-Jewish people who suffered at that time is that Jews were particularly targetted and purposefully exterminated. Other non-Jews suffered as much hurt but they weren't part of race being specifically victimised, which I think is a key point. Your comment about moving on in order to heal remains a valid one, though.